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Pending CCC: Mugging Gate

Discussion in 'Player Complaints/Reports' started by mattcos, Jul 12, 2020.

  1. mattcos

    mattcos HERBBB SAMSONNN

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    This situation has brought up a whole host of issues but I will leave those issues for others to discuss internally or elsewhere. The situation was Doggoh was found by citizens in the sewers and lost their equipment. The situation Doggoh described was that a squad of cops were wiped out, and now their character who was a cop was wounded and sought aid. Either IC misdirection or off-screen happenings.

    My sole gripe is a unit played by Doggoh entered into the sewers and lost equipment, from what I see less than six cops were online and in fact two CP players were online. The rule clearly stating six cops required for loss of scripts and surely that SHOULD apply.

    It feels cheap and unearned. My fear is that they could be taking advantage of their position. Yes it was IC, Sure it created roleplay, but it should not have happened that way.
     
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  2. Suaki

    Suaki pp

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    Personally, from my POV of the situation, it just looked like they were giving up items, the rebels won't grow without scripts sadly so I can understand this, but I will agree that this was really just free stuff, if it could be limited to some items like the pistol and some other items, rations or bags.
     
  3. doggoh

    doggoh yec
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    Hey! I'm here to give my POV on the matter.

    I don't really play on the server much, nor am I really 'close' to anyone who plays it often, so it's not like I have OOC connections or anything and was trying to feed the rebels guns. I feel kinda insulted for that being implied. What happened was that me and two other units were doing a sweep searching for a suspect, and they both got picked off by headcrabs, so my unit was left isolated and injured. When isolated the rebels ran into her and confronted her.

    Everything I did past there was from an IC perspective. My character figured the best way to survive and not die was to comply, and make up a story that makes her look good. Her sole intent was to keep living. She didn't value keeping her gear over living. She handed over a pistol and a uniform, and the rest of her gear was kept in her inventory because

    1. It was glitched.
    2. I thought it was a better idea to not give them tons of loot anyways, and
    3. They didn't pat me down, so some of it was still on her IC.

    The gear was given to an admin character who happened to be with the rebel group, and they understood the mugging rules, so I don't think the gear they took from me is going to be used. I even mentioned it in LOOC to make sure. Overall it was mostly an RP situation, and less about the scripts like people outside the rp might believe. The RP was really fun and developmental for my character, so I thank everyone involved :)
     
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  4. Ethan

    Ethan Combine Civil Authority

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    Doggoh's recollection of events is consistent with my own investigation. While there was a mugging rule violation here, I don't believe the intent of those who benefited from it was ill in nature. I do have issue with the admin who spawned headcrabs that caused the three man patrol to be reduced to a one man patrol, but that has been discussed and settled.

    Overall I think the issue is resolved, neither the parties involved nor the organizations involved seemed to have any issue with what has transpired and I'm fine with the outcome that has resulted from this encounter.
     
  5. Sleeves

    Sleeves Mr. Smiles
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    I understand a rule is broken but this is a very situational moment. A lone officer is happened upon by a squad of rebels. Of course a robbery and interrogation must go on. It only makes sense. I'd give anyone in that spot the same grace we were given. If we had organized with a plan to specifically go out and mug a unit I would agree with you Mattcos.

    None of this was organized between ourselves. It just happened.
     
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  6. mattcos

    mattcos HERBBB SAMSONNN

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    I felt this set a dangerous precedent. I don't believe guns had to be handed out at all, I think a simple "I can't give out guns." would have sufficed there. I think other things could of been given instead. I tried to bring this to staff so that this could be aired out but felt to be brushed off. My only course of action I felt was to post here so that it could be looked into and discussed. I am satisfied that after looking at all the facts staff and faction leads discussed and came to an understanding.

    I do not agree with @Sleeves that because of the circumstances of the meeting a robbery resulting in loss of weapons HAD to take place, I think in the same situation if instead of surrendering guns if that had surrendered bags of crafting materials or rations or smoke grenades it would not have changed much of the following RP or it's enjoyment. I don't think it's a proper reason to circumvent the set rules and is a dangerous precedent I'm worried will spread if this issue wasn't examined and discussed.
     
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  7. doggoh

    doggoh yec
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    I'm sorry that you feel this way. I don't play on the server enough to think about stuff like that, though. I just make models and stuff, I don't really have any responsibility beyond that. The only thing on my mind was doing the RP and acting as my character would, so I didn't really see the significance in handing out a script or two. Either way, I'm pretty sure the gear isn't even being used, based on the response I got from sleeves in LOOC at the time. Even if it was being used, I don't have any gripe with that, and I think its pretty excusable given the circumstances of how it happened.
     
  8. Sleeves

    Sleeves Mr. Smiles
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    Gear is being used. Gun was given to another person for full disclosure.

    Also sorry, Doggoh, but I don't understand what response you are mentioning from me in LOOC. Can you remind me?
     
  9. doggoh

    doggoh yec
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    I said something along the lines of being informed that the rp went against mugging rules, and said yall shouldnt get too close to the scripts cus u prolly wont be able to use them, then i think u agreed? i dont remember exactly what was said but i couldve just misremembered it. i dont think its that big of a deal anyways tho
     
  10. doc oc

    doc oc ohio
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    As I understand it, mugging rules are put in place in order to protect the CCA from muggers when there is a problem with low population. When the CCA unit themselves are in hostile territory, then any protection offered by that rule seems to be reasonably negated. It's really just an IC CCA issue that has to do with patrolling and activity rules. I don't think the script is going to make any difference in the server, and this is just a precedence to be taken ICly by the CCA. It was pretty amicably developmental for everyone.
     
  11. FluffyFoxxo

    FluffyFoxxo Member

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    I too was present in the event that happened. I can attest to the statements given regarding the RP and encounter. Yes all of this did happen. And while I believe the rules should be followed. As doc said, I believe the mugging rule is to protect units during low pop hours and the like. However this situation seemed... Skewed during the end as a mob of units suddenly came down upon us as if we stole fire from the gods and well. As we all put it "We got jumpscared." Mind you i was a bit miffed it happened and I just got outright shot instead of ya know. Rping (which I have recorded and clipped in case its needed to prove my point.)

    We weren't expecting the units to outright just full on go raid the sewers and with 100% accuracy to our location as well. But I digress. It happened, and while the unit was in hostile territory. So I'd say we could perhaps, overlook the rule this once or possibly revise it so it is more clear with lone units or units within hostile territory.
     
  12. doggoh

    doggoh yec
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    Yeah, IK this isnt the point of the thread, but id like to talk about this really quick for a moment since we're on the topic of the RP situation. I think itd be fine and would prefer it if anyone who got s2k'd could just rp it as if they got away from the CPs/got away injured. I think it was a pretty big deal for the rebel group and would kinda suck to just brush off and forget cus of NLR
     
  13. FluffyFoxxo

    FluffyFoxxo Member

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    To clear this up, I believe this was the case that we did make off with the RP and the injuries which provided me more rp in the end. But yeah I still have the footage if its up for debate and if needed.
     
  14. Sleeves

    Sleeves Mr. Smiles
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    My qualm with this is not even an hour later everyone wanted to loot the caves again, despite my character mentioning they had all got shot up. Really think injury RP, even if for just a day, should be acknowledged.
     
  15. doc oc

    doc oc ohio
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    Two of us who were shot and died took the injury RP, and I was the only injured one in that discussion, but I had been ICly "mended" by a vortigaunt as well as a medic we had shortly afterwards. Jay stuck it out because he was AFK and the worst wounded.
     
  16. Gyran

    Gyran Gyran
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    An alone and injured officer inside the sewers. It's not like rebels were planning to mug a cop, they took it icly and it sounds fair to me.
    Also how do you manage to die from headcrabs when Ive seen people mingepunching entire groups of them.

    If anything, cops are gonna think twice before going inside the sewers, I fear their superiors are gonna be much more harsh than those rebels.
     
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  17. Hamburguejas al vapor

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    This, i'm about to start setting up traps ICly if sweeps are on the way, i don't care if it's a patrol or something, you can't just rush down there like nothing, if you lose a leg in a sewer sweep then bad luck.
     
  18. Binary

    Binary Costco Employee

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    Don't worry! Ethan's kill squad save the day!
     
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  19. Ethan

    Ethan Combine Civil Authority

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    Bro post that footage. Linked says I missed shots when I smoked you I want him to eat it.
     
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  20. FluffyFoxxo

    FluffyFoxxo Member

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    Lmao sure hold on
     
  21. FluffyFoxxo

    FluffyFoxxo Member

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  22. FluffyFoxxo

    FluffyFoxxo Member

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    from what I saw you missed shots.
     
  23. Stern

    Stern Member

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    The CPS shouldn't have done a sweep in the sewers if they had less than 6 guys,

    This is more of an IC punishment, You can't be a lone CP in the sewers and expect to not get robbed.
     
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  24. Ethan

    Ethan Combine Civil Authority

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    See that's your problem, you're in the chat box well before you go to bring up your weapon. Ain't no words gonna save you. And most of the time I see you come back here bitching about it, or making someone else's problem with S2K your problem. The way you're trying to roll with this, you'll never win.

    But let me tell you how I see it, the same way everybody should see it.

    S2RP is dialogue. You ever seen a debate? It's not about who's right or wrong, just who's loudest or has better timing, punctuation, sentence structure, etc. These are the rules by which people dictate victory in S2RP. Few examples shine from my years of seeing S2RP-caused conflicts whereupon context was meaningfully paid into consideration to the point of an amiable resolution between parties. Simply put, even after the S2RP game is played, both sides often still feel they've lost. When you lose a game you get frustrated, when you get frustrated you quit. That's a key takeaway to remember for later when we talk about business.

    S2RP has its place, between two consenting parties, maybe three if you're pushing it, and all parties agree beforehand that due to context who's going to win, draw or lose.

    S2RP as a means or mode of translating victory on the battlefield is a completely ridiculous concept as all it promises is a reiterative discussion of circumstances, capabilities, physics, etc. The winner is the one with the most patience or general knowledge of that particular context in question, and usually in my experience whoever has the best political positioning in the server. To hit this point home further, while you're engaged in your discussion over these details, the world around you does not cease to exist, neither does time. Yet a tepid excuse exists to attempt to control the faculties of time itself called "time-scaling" whereupon the entitlement that the world should actually stop to revolve around your actions is expected to be more than an ineffective resolution to this completely uncontrollable and unenforceable factor.

    The reality of how this plays out is always the same and it's deadly simple. If time-scaling is ever observed by outside parties, it is dictated by the individual interpretation of all parties involved and the clock starts ticking on the aforementioned reiterative discussion over who should win and lose begins. And ladies and gentlemen of the court of public opinion, that clock never fails to count down to frustration, denial and failure.

    That, without question, is the most inefficient way to dictate victory over loss when a simple game of skill and strategy can take its place. Our heavenly father who dealt upon us a most sacred equalizer, for he giveth S2K, and in the bath of the blood we are all cleansed of the sins of monotonous reiterative debate over how a martial art can be deployed while shot eight times, the logic of fatal versus non-fatal wounds and how a grenade pin can be pulled by a human tongue.

    So to me and many winners like myself, we look at your decrepit ideology around S2RP and wonder what sickly mind would attempt to push the agenda forward beyond small parties, beyond slightly larger engagements to full-scale engagements themselves? And I think we all know who.

    Cancer.

    Yes, this is my hill to die on and I'll say it outright. It is always the cancer that sits on this throne espousing the virtue of "good" roleplayers and their reverence towards the crucible of dialogue over actions. They are the intellectually vein and weak of soul and willpower. They are self-ascribed leaders, mentors, role models and other figures of not so much responsible, but "respectable" authority that can call upon the people to help attend to their own matters of fragile ego, will and ultimately, agenda. They structure their approach carefully so as not to fall victim to the one approach that threatens them all. A contest of wills.

    I've never been one to reprimand the weak for being so, at least not until they pit their twisted games against others. They seek to make victims of those who come unprepared for the angle at which they present their ideology. But cancer is not without its cunning, in fact they use many valid strategies in their approach and they should be shown the proper respect for that. But, as is the main of this argument to point out, it is a fallacy. US Army General HR McMaster says it best, but instead cites of course actual wartime strategy in doing so.

    Cancer wants to overlay the political layer onto the tactical layer. In fact, they are most comfortable with just the right degree of thinness between politics and action. Because when you lose, you can fall back to these principals of what makes "good" roleplay and how exactly that should be elucidated in rules, policies, red tape, on and on and on...

    Because that's where cancer thrives, in the minutiae of bureaucracy. Where an argument can be won with words and not willpower. Where the facts and details of the context in question fail to take priority on the matter, instead "precedence" becomes the zing word. A world that easily accepts the arrogance of the much loved technique used by the court of public opinion, the hindsight 20/20 analysis.

    And to complete its masturbatory cycle in its own grand display of reiterative logic at its finest, it then becomes a post-facts analysis and breakdown over the actions themselves, whereupon compensation or punishment can be the subject of negotiation and not discussion.

    That ladies and gentlemen, is how S2RP can find itself being used and commonly is. Used by weak people with no heart to see themselves as such, nor the compunction to improve upon themselves despite being condemned. It is a kick in the ass too hard for any of these people to see themselves for who they are... and no amount of disarm, flank and engage can put them onto target with that.


    You know... until writing all of this out, I hadn't really realized what killed HL2RP over the past 10 years but I see it now clear as day. There was a time around late 2008 to 2010 where HL2RP had found itself a perfect balance. Two big communities, Mine Dog and TnB found themselves in a rare competition for its time but both boasted strong, consistent numbers. All of this on a much smaller Garry's Mod playerbase and in an even smaller HL2RP market. It wasn't any "golden age" of many of those decrepit RP nostalgia hounds at TnB would ascribe, but it did have itself one thing that really brought some eyes onto it. And that was a healthy dose of S2K.

    Raids against the rebels, raids against the nexus. Combat dictated everything and campaigns were won and lost at the behest of command strategies to the finer tactics of field commanders when put under the pressure to perform and did so well or failed entirely. But even then, this way of business was under siege by a subversive element growing within each of these communities.

    Eventually, as the tempo of combat died down, the cancer slithered in and began to sew its petulant seeds of thought-centric countenance towards the consequences of actions, then eventually, disguised as doing good work as well-doers for the community found themselves penning policy. From there, a great soul death ensued.

    People lost the joys of S2K at TnB. There were no more direct action operations to be found. To PK a character was a great offense and anybody caught claiming the joys of battle and the desires for another were seen as the "bad" roleplayers. Yes... that metric, the undefinable metric of good and bad in a world upon which the only expectation is that you play on your character, now perverted by a set of policies by which the cancer found itself in control of.

    At its peak you'd see maybe 800, possibly even a thousand plus players across all HL2RP gamemodes. Now you're lucky to catch a figure over 100, spread across a greater amount of dead servers and focusing only on a select few that corner the market in a niche type of gameplay. Yet they still cling to their ideology of "good" roleplay by S2RP and other ideological "reiterisms" as it were, sitting in a dead market with barely anybody left to give a fuck.

    Meanwhile, DarkRP and StarwarsRP servers sit with thousands of players and undoubtedly rake in millions in doing so. They decomplicated a situation that was made intentionally complex by a band of heedless misfits in "serious" roleplay servers who used their heavily politicized atmospheres in their now insular communities to create a microcosm of politics and personalities, as executed by fragile egos. A grotesque anatomy emerges and we find what TnB has become today and what many of their outcasts and others have sewn elsewhere. A game played outside the game itself, a game of weak people with damaged personalities, excuses for answers and no more willpower than a wet fart sliding up the crack of an asshole.

    And if that picture doesn't get any darker, it does when you count the litany of deviances that soon follow into that decrepit abyss of human wills. From the sycophants and the pleasers to the animal abusers and pedophiles. There can truly be no end when you allow cancer to dictate a single thing. One policy, that's all it takes. And that's all they're after. Because when you can get people to get behind that, you've already nailed down the steps on how to do it again. After that all it takes is a few more times before your balls deep in people who can hardly be called human.


    Meanwhile, we're just over here trying to make a gamemode. Instead we get a full on education on how fucked up people are and exactly where do you draw the line. Hell, how do you draw it. How do you manage something like this? And I've hit my head against this wall for better part of 13 years now, first alone and now with Fooz and company. Collectively we have hit our heads against a wall that came with a simple answer that any business major learns on day one. "Know your market."

    But therein lies the denial. The denial that cancer won. HL2RP is a market of nostalgia hounds and cancerous fiends. Anything else is a minority and can't be counted into realistic figures when it comes time to pay the bills. The majority population dictates your structure, and thus, your success.

    Ultimately HL2RP has become a sad misuse of assets and a vague canon that could have been expounded upon more diligently by responsible managers under an environment of better leadership at a time when it would have mattered. But sometimes the bad guys win.

    In this case they seized the initiative and gained traction and maintained a tempo that lead to a hellatious stagnation that lasted between 2011 and 2014 that redefined the genre. And I believe they did that starting with one policy. Just one.

    I don't recall a specific turning point in HL2RP history that indicates this directly, but now it seems there can be only one point that would cause such a pivotal turn in the wrong direction. Policies against S2K.


    Where we did we lose respect for the enemy commander when he kicked our asses and taught us something new about the battlefield, about ourselves? What happened where instead we came to threads like these and bitched about who gets what, instead of well-meant congratulations on a victory well-earned?

    I recall before we went down there to smoke these rebels that I congratulated Sleeves on seizing the initiative, that despite "rules" and "policy" being broken, I understood the intent and respected the man behind it. He deserves his war chest. And when we won, Jayden as the OPFOR commander congratulated our success against his forces.

    But here I see this thread with all the hallmarks of cancer trying to do what it does. Pushing towards policy, a re-write of the rules, a clear establishment of how and where words can be allowed in to dictate negotiations, instead of terms governed by reasonableness whereupon men can respect one another's intentions and settle up amongst themselves. Because at the end of the day it's not really about who won or lost, that was decided when the enemy commander had his team go left instead of right and they were zeroed out by an ambush. In that, there is no discussion.

    No... instead, at the end of the day your heart should be filled with the burning need for competition against the enemy commander or soldier who opposes your mission, your objectives. He wins some, you win some. The push and pull of conflict, healthy conflict.



    I felt like all this needed to be said, if only for my own sanity's sake. I wanted to design and fund a major gamemode off of HL2RP last year, but a simple market analysis pointed to a zero ROI off of HL2RP/G-Mod platform. Management of HL2RP is a nightmare. The logistics are difficult, sure. But cancer seeds itself into everything you can try to do. From the developers, to staff, to faction leaders and then the playerbase themselves. You find yourself having to flank issues that make you question why you even bothered to try it again in the first place.

    Maybe S&Box and Source 2 can redefine the genre, for that I hope. A new start upon which the enemy doesn't stand a chance to seize the initiative, not with a market as big as it will be, or at least as a big as I hope it to be.

    In the meantime, I'm content with S2K as it stands. I'm content winning my battles, and I learn from the ones I lose. That's something people like Foxxo will never truly understand. They'll always be in the chat box before they clear leather.
     
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  25. Gyran

    Gyran Gyran
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    I'm all for s2k in certain scenarios. Around 3 years ago, I used to play on a server where most if not all gunfights were s2k (I'm talking about posting a /me and then gunning down your target regardless of who's ready, who's afk and who doesnt even have a gun. Same for authorized assassinations and shotcopping). That was the first hl2rp server I ever played on and death (PK) was very very common. You might think this server was excessive and soon died because of that. You couldn't be more wrong, it currently thrives on it.

    The fear and tension that somebody who has a grudge against you can show up anytime and put a bullet in your brain ,without waiting for you to even react, is something I cannot describe and I have been craving to find in any other hl2rp server. If you think about it, it is the best and ultimate solution to LOOC stalling, one of the things I hate the most, and characters who refuse to die even when there would be realistically no way to survive, but I'll come back to it later.

    That server shaped me as a serious roleplayer, I'm a lowkey PK maniac and I despise NLR as much as Ethan despises S2RP. In my opinion, if you are dead you are dead for good, such is the life in a dystopian alien totalitarian regime. (Part of the reason why I support a much harsher Civil Protection, one that doesn't think twice before amputating a criminal instead of mindwiping and setting them free, only for them to magically recover all their memories one day later after getting hit by a cinder block because they cannot wait to be back in the edgy resistance *wink*).

    However, I ackowledge this server isn't like that and maybe will never be. I play by the rules just like everybody else and try be to as neutral as possible regardless of my roleplay mentality.

    But, back to the point.

    @Ethan , I think you are slightly generalising.
    I do not think S2RP itself is cancer.
    Some people, mostly rebels, abuse S2RP. They use the ambiguous timescale excuse and blatant powergame to get out of situations nobody would ever be able to.

    But even S2K, as cool and direct as it is, has it's flaws, which contrary to S2RP happen to be mostly related to game mechanics and the general bad optimization of the game that causes some people to have really shitty framerate, thus never allowing them to compete in any S2K scenario regardless of their level of strategy and IQ.

    I believe S2K and S2RP are both viable fight systems for two different tastes, but they cannot coexist without a certain degree of ambiguity and I guess, chaos and complaints.

    The real issue are the players themselves. Those who abuse the S2RP system, the ones Ethan calls weak, would easily find a way to abuse S2K aswell, and I am sure of it.

    My final say is that both S2K and S2RP will continue to cause problems as long as rules are not clear and specific enough. I will go as far to say that, in my opinion, as long as the balance between these two fight systems is 50%, and neither of them prevails over the other, the line between whether or not s2rp/s2k was necessary in this or that situation will continue to be too thin and create even more discussions and player complaints.
     
    #25 Gyran, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  26. Ethan

    Ethan Combine Civil Authority

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    I didn't say S2RP was cancer, I said cancer uses S2RP. The mode itself is not flawed, just who uses it.

    And you saying this
    Look I don't expect anyone to read that entire rant of mine, lol. But if you're gonna quote me, you gotta do at least that. My point was and is, no we don't need more rules. Simplified? Definitely and only for teachability. But never under this false flag of "reducing conflicts in the future" The only conflicts I ever see are those who lose and complain about it.

    Moreso anything to do with people not having a good enough system to handle S2K, I find that to be a terrible excuse. One of two things, one it's an engine from 2004 if not earlier with the latest additions to it being improvements on the 2007 updates. If you can't run that, then; Two, you should find a role away from danger in RP if you don't want to get killed. For example, don't kidnap units.

    I'm not saying you're part of the problem, but you quoted a giant chunk right out of their hand manual. For the most part we're on the same page and as far as people abusing S2K, that's fine. Because when they use wallhacks or aimbots they're easy to detect. That happens all the time and when I suspect it'll be used in a big fight I ask someone to watch in noclip.

    The ones who abuse S2RP are the ones cloaking themselves under "what's best for the community" and push on this idea that there does need to be more bureaucracy and minutiae. "Well then what do we do in this instance?" And then that shit quickly slides downhill to "Well let's have safe zones." or "No S2K here is reasonable." Then you get entangled in the mess of exceptions to the rules. "What if they run back to the safe zone?" "What if they hold a hostage there?" Etc...

    TLDR
    There is a simplicity and honesty to all out warfare. There's duplicity more often than not in S2RP. It's not the mode, just the user.
     
  27. Gyran

    Gyran Gyran
    Lore Team

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    Gyran
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    +78 / 16 / -5
    @Ethan Im not sure where I misquoted you, the only time I quoted you is the small "S2RP abusers are weak people" bit, which I think is what you said.
    Probably shouldn't have said specific now that I think about it, what I really meant is clear. I never said we need more rules, I said the rules need to be more clear. "Avoiding conflict in the future" is not a falseflag or some sort of excuse, avoiding ambiguity really is the point of rules after all, ambiguity leads to complaint and conflict.

    You said only the people who lose start complaining, yes you are right for the most part, I think that's just a natural behavior though. Maybe I'm mistaken but you talk about "those who lose" as if they were automatically wrong. The thing is that in many occasions we, players, staff, etc.. find ourselves discussing (not just on the forums) if s2k/s2rp was the right choice in this or that situation and this often sparks in an active debate when normally one would just have to look at the rules and say "ah yes you are Clearly wrong". So yes, excessive ooc drama and complaints is something everyone wants to avoid. Also I don't want you to think that I was/am attacking you or your rules in specific. I just want these "You s2ked me but you should have s2rped instead or viceversa" whine threads to stop.

    EDIT: in this case specifically. It would have been ideal for FluffyFoxxo to be like "Oh fuck we all got killed and Im a bit mad about it, but that's what the rules Clearly say so I cannot complain"

    Anyways I think we have pretty much derailed from the original thread topic so I apologize.
     
    #27 Gyran, Jul 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  28. Ethan

    Ethan Combine Civil Authority

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    307
    Ratings:
    +311 / 8 / -2
    Nah don't sweat it, I'd rather there be a conversation on this at least. Better here than anywhere else, it is a complaint thread after all.

    Besides, that's what the cancer wants, for the conversations against their interests to stop.

    I'm coming for you cancer. This will be the last thing you'll see.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 1